Can Men and Woman Ever Be “Just Friends”?
Jan 6, 2012 |
65 comments
Obviously these guys are trying to make the point that men and women can never be “just friends” because one of them – usually the guy – will become physically attracted to the other. But I’ve seen it be a problem for both sexes. Except with women, it’s typically more of an emotional attachment rather than a physical attraction.
Care to weigh in?
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I thought that this was an interesting survey and further thought that it was hilarious the distinction between the guys and girls responses. Now I would like to throw out there that I have several male friends who I do not consider marrying material. I enjoy hanging out with them and talking about this and that, but there is something about them that makes me pass over them in my ponderings of possible mates and consider them as just brothers.
There are many times when I am quite thankful for my brothers because they listen to me and give me advice, making sure to always stand up for me if the need arises. I can’t vouch for their ideas on the topic of guys and girls “just being friends”, but perhaps their willingness to discuss their crushes (on girls other than myself) with me might be an indicator?
Re: the ladder theory.
I definitely have two ladders. I am far from the prototypical guy when it comes to relationship issues, but there are many times I can recall women ‘jumping ladders’(usually unintentionally).
@USALady, would you care to elaborate?
My theory is that women can put a guy in the ‘just friends’ category because she knows there will always be an unending number of guys wanting to get with her. Most guys don’t have that same luxury.
Ladder ideology troubles me, I’m afraid. So I am almost brainstorming as I am writing; so if it’s a little less well formed than my usual, do forgive me. Ladder theory grieves me…for several reasons I’m thinking. I’ll try to keep it terse.
As I said before, ladder ideology at its base, is about sex. So perhaps if we are talking about people engaging in sexual relationships from the start (not after marriage) this might be salient. The further you get away from that truth, the looser the connection.
And further, why do we need it? It’s funny because all the underpinning issues that ladders attempt to clarify, we were already discussing with biblical principles. You don’t need ladder ideology to describe people who say “let’s be friends and see if I feel something for you later”. They are defrauding the person, whether it is a man or a woman. If someone agrees to be a friend, but yet is always pushing, insinuating, and only stops when s/he is finally convinced the other wants to stay friends only, that is defrauding behavior. If we are talking about any couple, but especially a believing couple, honesty will take you much farther than trying to figure out what rung of a potential ladder you are on.
Ladder ideology is not just about sex, but it’s also about lying, because that is the only way the system can work. The woman is either lying about which ladder the man is on, or the man is lying about being ok with just being friends, if the woman is actually forthright about the position he is in.
But I think what troubles me most about ladder ideology, is that I have seen it over-applied with devastating effect. This isn’t true for the vast majority, with the exception of a a very tiny, rarefied group. This hypothesis isn’t nearly as inclusive as it would like to think, and men and women have been brutally hurt by having their behavior held against the litmus of the ladder(s), because it didn’t apply. But by the time this was realized by the parties involved, the damage was done.
I say let our yeas be yeas, and our nays be nays. Honesty can cover a multitude of misconception and confusion. And I am not saying there aren’t a variety of ways people parse out whom they may be romantically interested in, but it is quite varied, and encompasses several factors – it’s not nearly as simple and as neat as ladder ideology would make it seem. I can think of a variety of other personality assessments I would use first.
Thanks.
@Candace – : “I’ve seen some fairly emotionally needy men, and usually those are the ones who seek out one or multiple female friends. Though, not all guys who have female friends are emotionally needy (some are my friends!).”
Thanks! And yeah, those were not absolutes, but trends I notice. I agree too that not all guys are emotionally needy. I do wonder though if they are the ones giving inter-gender deeper friendships a bum rap. Because of the greatness of their need for emotional connection (for whatever reason), it becomes easier for them to blur the lines of friendship, or desire to live in the word of “friendlationship” where it’s something more than friends, but less than partnered.
Wow… 2 pages of comments!
@BonnieJean- You rock! =) Yes, unfortunately, us women can’t let our guards down — even on a place such as MW. While I know that there are many wonderful men on this site, there are those here who define “friends with benefits” as “just friends.” As you said, we all have different definitions of friendship. What many would define as friendship, I’d probably place in the acquaintance category. So, as women, we must be diligent and ask a guy the right questions. Here are a couple of signs that a guy isn’t actually “just friends” with his female friends:
1. His female friends all hate each other.
2. His female friends hate any new woman (such as you) that he brings into his life, before even knowing anything about her really.
I used to think, “Oh, he just has really ungodly friends. That doesn’t reflect on him at all!” But it does! Even if he hasn’t pushed the boundaries of friendship with them, and they’re just incredibly ungodly, rude people, that says a whole lot about him. Psalms 1:1 is the verse I like to remember when encountering such guys. A guy who is seeking after the Lord with all of his heart isn’t going to be hanging out with the kind of girls who are going to make fun of and be rude to his potential wife.
If his female friends don’t like each other, there may be legitimate reasons there, but I think it’s likely that it’s because they’re jealous of each other because each one of them is thinking that what they have with the guy is more than friendship and/or that the friendship had a lot of potential to turn romantic at some point. And the same goes when they hate the “new girl” in the picture. If I was truly “just friends” with a guy, I would be rejoicing with him if he met someone, and I would want to get to know her and welcome her into my life.
When evaluating our friendships with the opposite sex, we need to ask ourselves if these friends would be jealous or hurt if we started dating someone. If so, then we’re probably not “just friends” and need to adjust the boundaries there, or, in some cases, need to break off the “friendship” altogether. I think we’d also do well to consider what would happen with these friendships if/when we get married. If you’re so close to your friend of the opposite sex that your friendship will take away from intimacy with your future spouse, then you’re too close. Personally, I don’t want to be the wife whose husband has phone sex with his best friend who happens to be really rude to me and hates my guts. And if a guy (or girl) thinks that sex within marriage is suddenly going to change the boundaries with all of his female friends, I think he’s mistaken. If he already pushes the boundaries with his friends and has a total lack of discernment in that area, sex isn’t going to fix it. The kind of guy who pushes the boundaries with his friends is the kind of guy who is probably going to cheat on his wife later on. Which is why I come back to my original point, which is that the rule is that men and woman can’t be “just friends.” It’s a very slippery slope that most guys seem to not have a clue how to keep from sliding down.
Did you all see the Boundless article on “friendgirls”? Good stuff! When a guy has friendgirls, it makes any prospective girlfriend/wife feel like “the other woman,” and that’s just not respectful to her.
@syntyche- You said, “Because of the greatness of their need for emotional connection (for whatever reason), it becomes easier for them to blur the lines of friendship, or desire to live in the word of “friendlationship” where it’s something more than friends, but less than partnered.”
Yes, I think so!! The guys I’ve knows who have friendlationships are very needy emotionally. The problem with that is that, rather than working on the root causes of their extreme neediness, they USE women to fill their need. And then they LIE to themselves and their potential girlfriends and say that everything will be okay once they get married and have a wife to fill their needs.
Much has been said on this subject already. I will say that I agree with those who stated that men and women can be friends to a certain point. But what that looks like is different from a friendship with someone of the same gender. I do think it depends on each individual person. But I’ve known people who have tons of opposite sex friendships and do tend to deny that something more might be there.
I think there will be a time that I call, a point of no return within the context of an opposite sex friendship. I don’t think guys are always thinking of every women as a potential wife– but that could just be me.
Above all else I thiink being honest to the other and yourself is so important and so rare these days. Don’t be afraid to discuss the status if you are confused. And men… be a man and take some initiative if you feel that things are going in a more than friend direction.
Okay, I wlll end there!
Much blessings!
BraynS
Yes! because a man might think you are interested in him. So he waits and waits and then one day you tell him goodbye and he has wasted his time. aka false set up. same for women. make sense? YES. Ever heard of David T. Moore? Moore On Life. He talks about it and makes it very clear men and women can not be friends. He is Right!
In a natural setting (not online), men and woman can be friends, because chances are, they would have met in a mutual circle of friends or in passing (perhaps in church or even at the grocery store). But, in regards to online dating (this site in particular, which is more like a ‘Facebook’ with a Christian basis), it is not possible, because either the man or the woman will not even pursue a friendship, unless there is a physical attraction (but it is clear, I believe that all, if not most of the men and women on here love God with all their hearts and thus their lives, so spiritual maturity is not so much the argument), because the thinking will be, “this will not turn into anything more in the future, so what’s the point in this becoming a friendship” or even, “I don’t have a peace about it” which could be more as a way to say – “I am not interested” (I don’t consider a few ‘hello’s’ or even a few email messages back forth as a friendship, but merely as an acquaintance, as there is no intentional effort in really getting to know the person, but words more so for a kind gesture).
My sister has been trying to post a comment on this discussion for the last several days, but she is having problems with her account. I’m posting it for her here.
CandiceGage wrote the following:
@Gene: I have to say that I disagree with your assessment. I’ve found that since dating sites actually do a remarkably good job of introducing like-minded people, it would be difficult NOT to make friends with some of your “matches.” Personally, I’ve stayed in touch with several men that I met on dating sites. One even visits my church often and has spent quite a bit of time at my family’s home. I invited several male friends that I knew from eHarmony to join Marry Well, and I’ve enjoyed watching their involvement in the site. My sister has done the same thing.
I think a lot of this has to do with how a person approaches relationships. If you launch right into romance-centered dating, maybe you wouldn’t have much left if you found out that the relationship wouldn’t go any further. On the other hand, if you begin with a foundation of real Christ-centered friendship, you always have that – whether the relationship grows into something more or not.
From the standpoint of scripture, it would be very difficult to argue that men and women can’t be friends. Jesus himself had single female friends. In the Epistles, the male authors often speak fondly of female fellow workers in the Lord.
I DO think there are limits of appropriate intimacy – physical and emotional – between friends of the opposite sex. We’ve all seen abuses of these no-commitment relationships. But we shouldn’t give up on good brother and sister in Christ friendships just because some people cross the line in this regard. To do so would be to commit the proverbial mistake of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Thanks Bonnie, regarding Candace’s comment. I agree with all of what you just said, though my context simply had to do with seeking to initiate friendships by posting a ‘hello’ or a comment on another person’s wall, not to mention the sending of a message as an invitation to friendship (Marry Well service only, not talking about eHarmony, as it is possible to stay connected with the people that are met on eHarmony through Facebook). With the women that I have reached out to for friendship, only one spent some time in talking with me through the ‘chat’ on gmail and email, and one was interested in connecting on Facebook, so we are friends through there. As for the guys, I had shared a few encouraging words via message and wall post and heard nothing back. So for the most part, I have seen messages not replied to as well as a few messages with small talk, that ended shortly thereafter, at the woman’s choice. I had sought a friendship with another woman that ended after a small handful of messages back and forth because she could not separate the potential for a relationship (I did not ask for a dating relationship, just friendship) from a friendship (so, she was not interested in simply a Christ friendship, as you had put it).
It’s ok
I am at the point to where I am not anxious in whether I met someone through this site or not. I see the site’s value in being able to read some of the blogs and comment about them, not to mention the Bible verses and articles that some share on their ‘statuses’. Perhaps the Lord desires for me to be single for a while yet, if not for the rest of my life, and that would be good, as life is more simple, and there is freedom to come and go, as compared to marriage. Though, the Lord could bring the woman my heart desires into my life through my church (in Korea or in the US), and actually, that might be better for I would be able to meet that person in a natural setting (time of fellowship after church, serving together, etc.).
The thread that refuses to die!
CandiceGage (via BonnieJean) said:
From the standpoint of scripture, it would be very difficult to argue that men and women can’t be friends. Jesus himself had single female friends. In the Epistles, the male authors often speak fondly of female fellow workers in the Lord.
I think we are reading too much into Scripture here. There is a distinct difference between “friend” and other relationship types such as “follower”, “acquaintance”, “coworker”, etc. I am skeptical that Jesus had female friends as we would know them today.
Remember in that (Jewish) culture of that day often the sexes were segregated, and men and women who were not of the same family did not simply “hang out” (If I’m wrong, please correct me and cite an appropriate source).
Now I’m certainly not saying that by having male and female friends you are somehow sinning, nor am I suggesting we try and go back to that norm. I’m just saying that the culture in the Bible often reflected segregation of the sexes in social environments.
@mike: You are right that the Jewish culture often segregated men and women. I recently read something from James A. Borland that discussed the topic. Jesus was counter-cultural in the way that he fellowshipped with women:
“Jesus’ condemnation of the sin of lust was crucial in allowing Him and His followers to enjoy social contact as male and female, something nearly foreign to the Jewish mores of His age. Jesus said that “anyone who look sat a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28). Why not separate men and women to avoid temptation as the rabbis practiced? Because Jesus came to seek and to save, to teach and to reach (Luke 19:10). That included women as well as men. Jesus’ disciples were to have a righteousness that “surpasses that of the Pharisees” (Matthew 5:20).
Jesus “called upon his disciples to discipline their thoughts rather than to avoid women.” Lust does not have to be fed but can be controlled. Jesus demanded such control from His disciples, allowing males and females to associate together and to work in harmony with one another. Although such social contact between the sexes would be unthinkable to first-century rabbis, Jesus’ teaching about the sinfulness of lust helps to explain the relationship men and women sustain both in His earthly ministry and in the apostolic church. In the early church, women frequently labored together with men (Acts 16:14-15; Romans 16:3, 12; Philippians 4:3).”
As I said above, there are levels of intimacy that would be inappropriate between friends of the opposite sex, but this doesn’t mean that a general friendship can’t exist.
In My heart I would like to believe that Men and Women could be just friends, but there is that aspect where feelings get involved. This is where I hear “It is not good that man be alone…” God in His wisdom made Man and Women, in this God had a purpose, the purpose Pro-Creation, though it goes beyond just mere Pro-Creation. God Knew what He was doing when He made man and woman. At what point does a Friendship end between a man and woman?
To what extent is a man willing to be a Friend to a woman, before and after the point of discretion comes about? I have found that I have had a number of Female Friends through my life. Over the Past 12 years I have had more Female Friends than I have ever had Male Friends. Some of these female friends I have grown away from, due to these very points being discussed here in this thread.
For example I have a Friend whom came to me asking me if I would hand in a Resume and Give a good word for her friend.
Her friend named Dana, and I became very good friends, turned out we had some interesting things in common, being connection to people who went back many years. While we became friends quickly I identified an attraction which I denied acting upon, as in my heart I knew she was not fit for me; this brought about some very intense challenges, as she desired to have more, she needed a friend, who was Neutral, and honest, real and integral, but she did not recognize these things. At length she could not maintain a friendship with me as she would go through relationship after relationship, four years later she turned to me with some serious pressure, putting me into a very Vulnerable place. I had to flee, and I am glad I did.
Men and Women cannot be just friends because at some point there will come about the temptation to play roles which are ONLY properly expressed in a marriage.
I think that boundaries would have to very particular and utterly respected, I have one friendship with a female where I have had to express to her that in order to maintain a friendship with me she needs to be resolved upon a fact, since then she has never spoken to me since, and she is awkward when comes to some of the social events that my Fellowship has from time to time.
I have had a few instances where I have had to remove my self from situations where I felt I was vulnerable, while I was not intentional, in some cases I was tempted and rather than hold out with thinking my ability to be integral was enough, I found it proper to just remove myself as being a factor for temptation. So to some degree No Men and Woman cannot be friends, Yet up to and not beyond a certain point Yes they can. There is no easy way to Define a Yes or a No in this.