Save Submission for Marriage
by Candice Gage
A few days ago, a Facebook friend of mine shared an article with a title that caught my attention, “Women, Stop Submitting to Men.” I clicked on the link and found myself reading a piece by Russell Moore. Once again, I was impressed by his insight and no-nonsense style.
In his article, Moore discusses what he sees as a cultural problem — women are too submissive.
Indeed, a primary problem in our culture and in our churches isn’t that women aren’t submissive enough to men, but instead that they are far too submissive….[Y]es, wives are called to submit to their husbands (Eph. 5:22 ; 1 Pet. 3:1-6 ). But that’s just the point. In the Bible, it is not that women, generally, are to submit to men, generally. Instead, “wives” are to submit “to your own husbands” (1 Pet. 3:1 ).
Submitting to men in general renders it impossible to submit to one’s “own husband.” Submission to one’s husband means faithfulness to him, and to him alone, which means saying “no” to other suitors…
Women, sexual and emotional purity means a refusal to submit to “men,” in order to submit to your own husband, even one whose name and face you do not yet know. Your closeness with your husband, present or future, means a distance from every man who isn’t, or who possibly might not be, him… [T]here is no biblical category for “boyfriend” or “lover,” and you owe such designation no submission. In fact, to be submissive to your future husband you must stand back and evaluate, with rigid scrutiny, “Is this the one who is to come, or is there another?” That requires an emotional and physical distance until there is a lifelong covenant made, until you stand before one who is your “own husband.”
In dating relationships, it’s important for men and women to behave in ways that don’t conflict with God’s design for marriage. Men should lead, and women should respond, but this doesn’t entail special submission on the part of women. Rather, both parties should seek to love the other in the Lord as they submit to Christ.
Ladies, a man isn’t your spiritual head until after marriage. So, save submission until then.
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Yes, there is no Biblical category for boyfriend/girlfriend. That means that it doesn’t exist and/or that we as Christians should not recognize it! Sigh. Not this again! Christians, lay down your computers — they weren’t used in the first century AD either!
Let’s keep missing the point of being saved and keep trying to follow 1st century Judiac cultural practices, because that’s what Jesus requires! Come on, now, guys. What about the separation during the betrothal period and the woman living with her parents until the husband comes? Why aren’t you focused on that, too? Seriously, that’s a big blind spot, MW. You’re going to require all of the 1st century Judiac culture except those that affect being engaged and marriage? After being engaged, American culture (or British, or wherever) can take over, right? *shaking head*
An emotional distance, eh. I need to put that on my checklist. I can’t imagine things working out for me well, being an emotional guy, but hey, MW is never wrong. I wonder how I’m able to determine if a woman will respond to me emotionally.
“Ladies, a man isn’t your spiritual head until after marriage. So, save submission until then.”
I think a blanket statement like this is pretty irresponsible. What about the God ordained role of male pastors and elders in a church? Are women not under obligation to submit to their leadership and authority in the context of our gathering together as the Lord’s people? I agree with the premise that a young woman is not under obligation to submit to a man she is not married to. But she is called to submit to all kinds of leadership in her life to men she not married to – our political leaders, the boss at work, her pastor, the police officer who pulls her over at a traffic stop, etc. Men are under these kinds of authority too. Anyway, hopefully my point is clear – a “one size fits all” statement doesn’t work without a lot of qualification.
I think what Candice meant is that a woman does not need to submit to her boyfriend, being that she is discussing things within the context of a dating relationship. And I think that anyone who disagrees with that should do so politely. If I were the author of this article and I saw the first comment on here, I’d feel like crying. Speaking to Candice sarcastically and accusing her of having a blind spot when you don’t even know her is out of line. Please, disagree with the issue, not the person who wrote about it.
@SilverFire: The point is that women aren’t called to submit to their boyfriends since that is not a Biblical relationship status. Candice isn’t saying that we can’t have a boyfriend/girlfriend; rather she’s making the point that we shouldn’t treat that relationship like a marriage.
@electricman: If you read the source article that Candice uses, you will find that it is not making a blanket statement. It actually makes reference to submitting to leaders and pastors, just as you mention (which men are called to do as well, not just women). This article is actually arguing against the blanket statement regarding submission.
“In the Bible, it is not that women, generally, are to submit to men, generally.” Wives are to submit to husbands, not women to men or girlfriends to boyfriends. That’s an important distinction.
I won’t speak to Candice’s point as others have done that… Having skimmed the Russell Moore article (getting too late of a start on my morning to read the whole thing!) I think that much of the “submission” he is challenging in *his* article is when women become swept up into the idea that they must dress or behave in ways that make them “available” or “attractive” to men in the world’s sense. I think he’s just trying to bolster the confidence of ladies today to take a stand and not submit to the current demeaning cultural expectations that to appeal to men you have to exploit your sexuality in an unseemly way. Another quote from the article perhaps illustrates this angle: “Is this really a “pro-woman” culture when restaurant chains enable men to pay to ogle women in tight T-shirts while they gobble down chicken wings?” Making oneself sexually available before marriage in inappropriate ways, whether it be a teenage girl pressured into oral sex or women feeling they must dress provocatively in order to attract the attention of a man is obviously not what we as Christians are called to “submit” to.
As to the emotional component, based on my very incomplete reading, it seems he only mentions that twice in the article and is a bit unclear on what he means there. Personally, I think there is a normal progression of emotional bonding in dating relationships that is healthy within the proper context, and I would hope Dr. Moore isn’t advising cutting that out completely. I kind of doubt he is. But that’s just my two cents
I liked the thread, and was happy that others are speaking about it. The gist could basically be boiled down to this: you submit to a man based on what is required of the specific role – pastor, manager, husband – not on the fact that he has a y chromosome.
And I also really liked how he linked the obsession with the way women are supposed to look in this society to an unhealthy desire of pleasing men in general. Some of my favorite quotes:
“In the church it is little better. Too many of our girls and young women are tyrannized by the expectation to look a certain way, to weigh a certain amount, in order to gain the attention of “guys.””
“Your beauty is found not in external (and fleeting) youth and “attractiveness” but in the “hidden person of the heart” which “in God’s sight is very precious” (1 Pet. 3:3-4). And it will be beautiful in the sight of a man who is propelled by the Spirit of this God.”
“Sisters, you owe no submission to Hollywood or to Madison Avenue, or to those who listen to them. Your worth and dignity cannot be defined by them. Stop comparing yourselves to supermodels and porn stars. Stop loathing your body, or your age. Stop feeling inferior to vaporous glamor. You are beautiful.”
The only addendum I would add is that while this is rampant in the world, it is rampant in the church as well, and not just having to do with beauty. I remember reading christian articles that advocated universal submission. The one that stood out the most, as an example, was an article that encouraged men to feel more masculine. And even in the instance where the woman was the manager (at a company) and the man was an A.A., she was still supposed to speak softly to him, and not order him *too much*, even though he was clearly the subordinate. I believe the article is trying to fight those unfortunate situations.
Thanks Candice!
@SilverFire- “An emotional distance, eh. I need to put that on my checklist. I can’t imagine things working out for me well, being an emotional guy, but hey, MW is never wrong. I wonder how I’m able to determine if a woman will respond to me emotionally.”
This is a tangent, but I’ve negotiated that border for a while, so here’s my random, unsolicited two cents.
It will make sense if you have a hard time determining if a woman is responding to you emotionally. And no, it’s not because of some mandate you think MW is giving.
Life is about balance, the balance within, and the balance between – just like the triune God is perfectly balanced between the Father, The Son, & the Holy Spirit. If you are as emotional as you say, then I would speculate your partner would need to balance that out. So you’re not looking for a very emotional woman, you’re looking for a very rational, and logical woman – just like we see in reverse, with men who are very logical balanced against women who are very emotive and intuitive. And what is the usual complaint of wives like that? That the husband at times can be very indifferent, a bit unfeeling, and utterly confusing in terms of how they feel about them – even though when you ask the men they are absolutely smitten; they just have a problem expressing that.
So no, I’d say you relying on logic alone may not be good. But perhaps logic should be on your radar in the guise of her; I’d say just be a little forgiving if she struggles with emotional expressiveness, because she will appreciate yours.
While I agree with the statement made upon the conclusion of this article. I have to wonder if there isnt something being missed here. Some things have been referenced by a few others.
I agree that there is no biblical role for the bf/gf relationship. That when you find yourself IN such a relationship you must do your best to remain open minded about what was said in the article.
“Is this the one or should I be looking for someone else?”
Once you have jointly decided that you want to be together, even I would say prior to a formal “engagement” the roles of submission and following need to begin to fall into place. I think it should almost naturally occur that way. There is no real on/off switch for submission where you just “all of the sudden” submit to someone. As you get to know a person and come to respect them it becomes easier and makes more sense to be able to follow submission under them.
This topic is kind of baffling to me. What exactly is inappropriate submission before marriage? I’m not asking to be argumentative, just looking for specifics of what would be inappropriate ways a woman would “submit”? Obviously capitulating to engaging in sexual activity before marriage would be one, but that is sin, not “submission” necessarily.
@moviefanatic85, I agree with your post and you verbalized quite well what was already in my head.
@electricman- I think that, to a certain degree, Christians are always submitting to someone, like you said in your earlier comment. But part of the dating process for a woman is determining if the guy she is spending time with is someone who would be a godly leader who she could submit to with a clear conscience. There’s no fear in submitting to a man who is in submission to God, so that’s what I look for. If I see that a man is not submitting to God and unwilling to step outside of his own selfish little bubble, then that’s a red flag to me that I’m not compatible with a guy and need to permanently break things off. Before the point where I break things off, there are a series of things, usually, that I would not submit to. For example, I was dating this guy in the spring/summer of 2009 and he would want me to do things that I didn’t feel that I should do… like one time he wanted to me to rearrange some plans to spend some time with him. These were plans that I’d had for awhile and it would have been unkind to try to change them at the last minute. So I explained to him that I would not change my plans (and why). He got really mad and threatened me… and we argued… and then he pulled the whole submission thing and told me that I had to submit to him because he was the guy. And that’s where I disagree. Women are supposed to submit to their husbands and a variety of other authority figures, but, as syntyche said, you don’t just submit because he has a y chromosome. In this case, if I had been married to the guy and he had asked me to change my plans, I would have explained to him why I didn’t think I should, but then ultimately would have submitted to his decision. But, by the point that I would be married to someone, I would have determined already that he loves me and loves God and is generally making decisions correctly. That doesn’t mean that he won’t make mistakes, but that I can be confident in submitting to him because he’s not telling me to do things for selfish reasons. At that point I’ve made a vow and am obligated to keep it. But in a dating relationship, I haven’t made a vow and I see no reason to do something that I feel is wrong just because my boyfriend wants me to. That said, I think as trust develops and as the relationship progresses, submission is natural–not in the sense of me thinking, “Well, I guess it’s time for to do whatever he says,” but in the sense of thinking that what he asks of me is right and absolutely worth considering. If a guy didn’t see the development of that in a woman he was dating, then I would think that he should become concerned because, as moviefanatic said, it’s not really a switch that a woman can turn on. A spirit of submission should always be there, because, even if a woman isn’t interacting with a person she needs to submit to, she should always be submitting to God. If a woman isn’t submissive in the present ways that she should be, then she’s probably not going to suddenly turn on the “submission switch” after marriage.
I recently read a good book called Holding Hands, Holding Hearts: Recovering a Biblical View of Christian Dating by Richard & Sharon Phillips. I have read a lot of books on relationships, and I think this is the best so far. The authors base their teaching on a theology of marriage, and they write that “a dating relationship grows toward marriage as commitment, intimacy, and interdependence increase in godly and healthy ways.”
While dating, the woman does not “submit” to the man as he is not her husband, but she does respond to and follow his leadership in ways that are appropriate to where they are at. The greater his commitment (and his sacrificial Christlike love), the more finely-tuned her response (that which grows toward church-like submission) . . . till marriage–or not, as God leads them.
I think it’s very easy to talk about submission on the single side, but our married friends would give greater insight to this issue.
Silverfire, I understand your frustration. From some ideas and beliefs shared here, it’s amazing any relationship or marriage ever survives!
It is not ok to use scripture out of context. The quoted author uses a phrase meant only for the messiah, not on considering a spouse. And yes if we are going to embrace biblical practices, we need to do so in the
Candace could really clarify her statement for those who may not read the entire referenced article.
Should men save leadership for marriage?
Dear Brothers,
Many of you are out of line completely and have completely missed the entire purpose of Misslea’s post.
Longer response on its ways, but I am going to sleep and pray before posting it.
I prayer that God will give us ears to hear and a humble heart.
Many Blessings!
@Psalm67: Pertinent question.
@electricman: Some of the first things that came to mind on how women “submit” to their boyfriends are these: the woman drastically changes the way she dresses in order to please her boyfriend’s expectations; the woman starts drinking coffee/wine/etc. because her boyfriend drinks it, even though she dislikes the taste; the woman stops/starts wearing make-up at her boyfriend’s request; the woman does/doesn’t cut her hair based on her boyfriend’s desires; the woman cancels long-standing engagements in order to be more available for her boyfriend; the woman participates in book clubs/video games/other activities that she dislikes because that is what her boyfriend wants to do. In my experience, it is the woman who makes these significant life changes in order to please the man, but the man does not reciprocate; he gets to live however he wants with no regard for what the woman wants because woman “are supposed to submit to the man,” and women are taught that this unequal exchange is the normal, proper way life should be.
Nethwen, just curious but you do believe that a woman is supposed to submit to her husband at all? Reading some statements in your profile make me think otherwise.
@electricman, Is it really necessary to engage in back and forth directed specifically at another member. I think we can conclude that most all the woman on here believe in healthy (key word) submission within marriage, but that this needs to be done with extreme caution while dating. A woman is not required to obey the commands of her boyfriend. In a sense, if she doesn’t like what he’s asking her, she can break up. I think this article is discussing the fact that woman need to be careful not to submit too early to a man that hasn’t earned the right to receive that submission.
@Almost all man who has responded to most Lodge articles. I am getting sick and tired of reading you whine and complain about the fact you feel you’ve received unequal treatment in Lodge articles. This article is an example of something that woman can work on… and what do you do? You still complain. Men, we are called to be loving and respectful leaders– and I am afraid we are missing the mark.
I think the MW leadership team needs to consider moderating the content within the Lodge comments. I think we need to be very very very careful of what we say. After all this is on the Internet and available for non-members to read and will remain on the internet FOREVER.
Just a word of advice to men… we aren’t going to score any points by picking fights with a group of women- especially when we hope one of them will one day be our wife.
So again, I’m challenging all the men on here who seem to have a problem with respect– MAN UP!
Joanathan, I honestly can’t see where you’re coming from since this discourse has seemed pretty civil to me. There hasn’t been any nastiness or name calling going on, just some disagreement which is hopefully allowed. Perhaps this has been a problem in the past but I haven’t been here long enough to make that judgment.
You were pretty rude to question if a specific young woman would even submit in marriage. Those are fighting words, my friend.
Jonathan, why don’t we let the people who run this site decide if my comment was rude or not. Aren’t there moderators here who check on this forum? Feel free to report my posting to them if you wish. If my posting is deemed to be rude they can remove it.
@jonathanarm: Thank you for the defense, but for the record, I find electricman’s question reasonable.
@electricman: My views on submission would hijack the thread and to be understood would require a conversation rather than a few written messages. The simple answer is, I do not believe in submission the way most churches teach it – where the man has the ultimate authority and the woman is required to obey no matter what.
Nethwen, this is understandably a challenging subject. Anymore in our society and culture it is not viewed highly of women to submit to the authority of their husband.
Why has it become such a problem?
I would say there are a number of reasons why this has begun to happen.
I do not like to blame the “media/news” for everything but the news media as well as some of the popular TV shows for awhile have depicted situations of abusive or extremely unkind husbands. Shows along the lines of NCIS and Law and Order where we see women treated poorly (sometimes by males). This along with news like Nancy Grace and other articles where the minority of extreme situations are called attention to at a National level.
This perhaps has caused women to feel that they cannot trust the male side of our race. I am sure that there are some who can easily justify their mistrust in men on some more personal level. They come from an abusive relationship, dad, bf, something; and that is why they are turned off (as it were) to the male side of the population.
With this situation comes something I think we as Americans have become extremely good at; we find something that we agree with either positive OR heinous and we jump on the bandwagon as a bunch of “haters”.
I feel that these things have spurred the rise in the Feminist movement. I dont like to blame Men for all the problems (lets face it, I may as well blame myself in that case) but if people are treated fairly I dont that we see much in the way of rebellion. If those in authority use equality in their judgment there is a decreased likelihood of anarchy.
Having said that I would conclude by saying; We as men need to be mindful of the feelings of women. We as men are called to a very high position, something I think that we as men are aware of. Its a difficult calling to be a “leader” and rarely is it a “fun” thing to do. It has some wonderful rewards that go with it but it is a challenge. And lets face it; we are human and a fallen and sinful race. That doesnt make it easier.
Let us also not forget that as high of a calling as we have received (the calling of leadership) that women are called to the very dangerous role of submission. I dont like to speak FOR them but think they will agree that again; if the leadership is equal and fair, and responsibility is reciprocal that they have no problem submitting to the authority of a husband or even perhaps a b/f.
What I think this issue calls for more than anything is something that can never happen TO MUCH in a relationship, and that is good old fashioned Communication. If both people are able to be expressive of how they’re feeling; most of the disagreements about any subject can be cleared up without much trouble.
Wow.. that was probably more than needed to be said. Those of you who actually decided to read this whole thing, thanks for devoting your time to my long winded response.
wow….things have certainly gotten heated here.
I don’t think the article is being approached from the right point of view. Nor some of the comments here.
Here’s the thing. When we look at Jesus’ life he was the primary example of “leadership” we should be following as men.
What exactly is Jesus’ brand of leadership? He has a servant-leader. I don’t have to count the times in the Bible where he put the needs of the people above even his and his disciples needs. The ultimate act of leadership can be seen in Romans 5:8 — But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
This is why we, as humans, are so willing to *submit* ourselves to God so that we can become more like Christ.
In both marriage and the dating period, women should not be submitting because the man is commanding them to via Biblical reference. This is clearly not what is meant; Ephesians 5:25-33 clearly explains how/why the men are supposed to act in leadership position. True leadership from a man should be this servant leadership — “In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies.”
You can tell when people are inconsiderate of other people’s feelings, plans, etc. that they are not leading in a Biblical way. This should give you some inclination of both how they view submission in the context of a man-woman but also God-man relationship.
Unfortunately, however, relationships do exist where these are issues. Obviously, with a dating relationship you can break these off. In marriage, this is a much harder question to answer, and even Paul warns us about similar situations in 2 Corinthians 6:14-17 about being unequally yoked by marrying an unbeliever. This is a situation where the woman will need to be crying out to God in prayer and getting support from the church and godly believers. It should be approach on case by case basis.
In conclusion, to fully understand “submission” we also need to understand “leadership.” Once we know this, we understand that submission is actually not a negative thing; rather, it is something that both men and women should rejoice in if under the context of a Biblical Christ-church and man-woman relationship. This is, however, not to say that we will never have to submit under tough circumstances, but we should be joyful in all circumstances even when things are difficult.
exactly right stevept. You arose at a valid point much better than I did. I merely succeeded in rambling on
The question Psalm 67 posed is crucial. I think Dr. Moore meant that women shouldn’t act like they are married when dating. This can apply to men too. A man can lead but the aim is not too act like a husband. I think the aim is to win her heart? Just suggesting…
leelee77 I can accept that viewpoint in the situation of a boyfriend/girlfriend situation.
If a man is trying to lead using the example of Christ; I’m not sure how you DONT act like the “husband” you’re supposed to be though.
Trying to kick that around in my own head, how to emulate Christ, and yet, remain neutral to it (for lack of trying to find a better term than neutral)
stevept nailed it as far as the Christian walk.
Im not sure that a man of God who has Christ living in him, can turn off that switch of “leadership” The grace he is given flows freely out from him and with that grace comes; support, aid to others, the desire to put others before self.
All those things I would say have no business being turned off, EVER.
The line being drawn by that question Psalm67 posed, to me was, “well if one side doesnt do their calling, should the other end have to hold up their side of the bargain?”
I may perhaps be mis-quoting Psalm 67, if that was not their desired point or intention, I apologize.
The calling of the Christian though is to follow Christ, Christ holds up his end of the bargain, ALWAYS. Regardless of what we (humans) on the other side of the contract do. Thats why it is called a Covenant, and not a contract. Its not breakable. We are called to emulate Christ always, not JUST when the other person is doing it too.
My thoughts (of which there may be to much of already in this discussion LOL)
@moviefanatic_85: You’re right. I think the key is not to get bogged down with all this but to try and emulate Christ in dating relationships. The issues that Dr. Moore brings up are important or he wouldn’t bring them up. Like any other relationship, we need to be careful of things that are not unhealthy.
“The calling of the Christian though is to follow Christ, Christ holds up his end of the bargain, ALWAYS. Regardless of what we (humans) on the other side of the contract do. Thats why it is called a Covenant, and not a contract. Its not breakable. We are called to emulate Christ always, not JUST when the other person is doing it too.”
Precisely. Matthew 5 sums it up pretty nice… we are called not just to love those who love us but to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute.
Many times we have to do things we don’t like.
Which brings me to…
Having thought about this a lot recently I think that the dating relationship should be thought of as more of a mentoring/mentoree role. Sometimes the mentor can be in the wrong, and if the mentoree knows that hopefully she should be able to scripturally point out why the mentor is in the wrong. It’s not like the mentoree has to automatically submit to the mentor. However, they exist in a relationship that is going to grow and hopefully mature (and in context for man-woman mature into marriage). It’s the mentors role to lead, but not in a way that there isn’t dialogue between them as they grow in a learning relationship.
Also, @movie thanks.
My point was basically that leadership and submission are two sides of the same coin. If one person is to lead, the other is to follow. Thus, it seems inconsistent to say that the boyfriend ought lead in the relationship, but that the girlfriend ought not to submit to the boyfriend.
So how does it work practically? The point of a dating relationship is to work towards a husband-wife relationship. The boyfriend ought to try to lead, and the girlfriend ought to try to submit to his leadership and follow. If they are able to do so joyfully, the relationship has potential.
A woman I knew once had the attitude that “I won’t submit to my boyfriend because I don’t have to, but if we were to get married, then I would, because I’d be obligated to.” That’s a recipe for disaster. If a woman has trouble submitting before marriage, it’s not going to be easier afterwards. Likewise, if a man has trouble leading before marriage, it’s not going to magically happen after marriage.
I’d like to thank Candace for raising a provocative subject worthy of consideration. (The extensive comments here indicate this is not irrelevant.)
I agree that dating and courtship provide context for evaluation prior to commitment. During this period, it seems only wise that a woman would “stand back and evaluate” and “keep emotional distance.”
To do otherwise could expose the woman to being taken in by a fraud, perhaps of the kind Paul mentions in II Tim. 3:6,7.
Psalm 67 raises important issues in his comment. I’ll conclude that Dr. Moore was not necessarily implying that…I hope. I think what he meant, though in his own words, is that women should not completely change themselves because they are in a relationship. I’m not saying change is not good but there needs to be good reasons. Saying “my boyfriend prefers this” is fine but not on every occasion. Maybe Dr. Moore is referring to this because some women may think they are submitting.
This discussion has become more interesting than it was originally. It seems we began with two opposing sides, then we began to have comments that were a little more moderate. But it seems that at the end of the day we are back to where we started.
I don’t want to take over this conversation, but what we are really discussing here are “biblical gender roles.” There are at least two opposing theories on gender roles that Christians subscribe to: egalitarianism and complementarian. There is biblical support and arguments that could be made on behalf of each position. But because these positions differ so greatly, it may be wise to discuss this in the very early stages of your dating relationships. It will undoubtedly affect the way you date, court, and marry.
There are many books that I can recommend on this topic. If you are a reader, ask me. “Love and Respect” by Dr. Emerson Eggerichs is one that I would highly recommend. It is aimed more for those that are already married, but still could be helpful for those who hope to be married one day.
I don’t think this topic will ever be solved completely. There are simply too many arguments (even logical ones) that can be made by parties on each side. Instead, I believe we need to be equally-yoked, like-minded, even in theology. Because otherwise it will be a never ending problem.
Many blessings and thanks for everyone for the contribution.
Edit: two opposing theories should read: egalitarianism and complementarianism.